Vidqun:"..criticizing Biblical sacrifice. And how many animals are we killing off every day for food?"
Yes, for food. Not for an invisible person that enjoys the sight of people burning animal corpses in His name.
Whether we should all live on vegetables is another topic. This topic concerns excessive and needless death that was not of any practical value, or necessary to feed your family.
....
Vidqun:"How many are killed off by hunters?"
Hunting can be carried out for many reasons, but I'll assume you mean illegal poaching or killing merely for sport. Many people would agree that such hunting is wrong, and unnecessary to survival.
Gods morality should be higher than such wrong actions. Why did the God of the Bible require people to kill animals, who had done nothing wrong, merely to show that they were sorry for what they had done?
If a neighbour had offended or wronged you in some way, would you expect him to kill his dog and grill it on the front lawn to show he was sorry? Or would an apology and maybe a nice card suffice?
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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51
Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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defender of truth
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
I shouldn't really have called him self-obsessed, that was uncalled for. I apologise.
This is where the Focus should be at the moment:
"Now, I address everyone.
That was then. Now is now, and help is needed.
I returned "here", after a gap of a dozen years, solely to find recruits in the second phase of the war (we won the first - domination of cyberspace), which is to hold the WTS legally (i.e. financially) accountable for her transgressions, the damage to the mental health and happiness of many millions (not just limited to members).
This might even kill her off..."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/281308/1/A-precious-gift-to-all-from-Jehovah-channelled-via-Focus#.U7Sdy12t-o8 -
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A precious gift to all from Jehovah (channelled via Focus)
by Focus insome souls here may feel i was a little harsh.
if so, i am deeply sorry.
i was abused by a handful right from the start, presumably on the basis of the avatar picture (and 2001 vintage).. when visiting dubland, i often find that others start fights with me - for whatever reason, and i provide quite a supply of them - and when it doesn't quite go the way they expected, they cry persecution.
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defender of truth
1) " My competence at handling the media is adequate but many will be far, far better and I will be hampered by the need for anonymity. Twitter, Facebook and other "new" media skills are badly needed. "
.. Have you contacted AAWA? They may be able to help or at least coordinate with you in that area.
http://aawa.co/about-aawa/ -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
Saved JW?.. Theists?.. We await your answer.
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Focus wrote:
"FOOTNOTE
** Memory can play tricks. Having only just heard of the sad death of my dear colleague Farkel.. I've looked again at his posts, and saw he had recently claimed to have led the Exodus from H2O to here (as in, he was the first)
Doug was scrupulously honest, as I am, and I therefore know it must have slipped his mind that it was I who had joined and started posting on (what was then) JWD five weeks before he did, and had encouraged the bunch of others to follow me. H2O was busted.
The members' directory here confirms I'm right:
Focus Joined 2/6/2001
Farkel Joined 3/14/2001"
... Words almost fail me, but self obsession are two that come to mind. I've never read anything like that post before..
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/humour/281227/3/Watchtower-to-ban-PUSSIES-July-14-This-is-not-good#5045420 -
95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Don't take Focus too seriously, would be my advice. His opinions on the intelligience, or lack thereof, of posters on JWN are as irrelevant as our opinion of him.
Anyway, you all know what happens when you keep feeding stray cats?...
Just leave the guy to waffle and stop feeding him posts to pick apart with his humongous intellect.
If anyone feels the urge to take him or his insults at all seriously, please take a look at the following thread.
He is talking to an old friend of his who posted to ask where he was, 9 years ago and then 8 years ago!! It wasn't anywhere close to the last thread that his friend posted on either, which would have at least made some sense.. and Unclebruce hasn't posted here for 4 months anyway!
I think we have a very nostalgic person here, longing for the old days and searching for a way to be relevant again. I could be wrong, but I'm just trying to have a little empathy for the old guy.. Not that he wants to generate any empathy ;)
(Read both pages of the thread.)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/2671/1/Updated-list-of-Watchtower-RANKS-not-Classes#.U7QOuV2t-o8 -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
"Post12of16
Joined2/2/2010
When I speak about suffering=bad I am speaking purely in philosophical terms."
Saved JW's not disagreeing, to be fair, he is being an evasive philosopher. Let's see if he/she is brave enough to give a direct reply to the question the thread poses.. -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
(Rather than spending the next week riding a philosophical merry-go-round where we end up wondering if our own existence is merely an assertion, or if we are all just butterflies dreaming that we are humans, let's get back to the topic, eh?)
"Because the entire basis of the argument here is this
Suffering = Bad [assertion] God allows suffering; ergo God is bad"
.. SAVEDJW, the purpose of this thread is to give answers to the question 'Why does a Theistic God allow animals to suffer?' .
This question in itself is not an attack on God.. It is not an accusation or necessarily the start of a debate.. It is merely a question.
Whether suffering being bad is an undeniable truth, or merely an assertion, is NOT the topic.
Whether anyone can decide if God's actions are good or bad, when atheists don't believe in a God and thus only have their own thoughts by which to judge good and bad, is also NOT the topic.
Here's the original question for you:
Why does your God (if you are a theist that is) allow animals to suffer? How would you explain it? (Suffering is beneficial, good and necessary for x reason.. He doesn't care.. Because of mans fall from perfection..
these are examples of actual answers to a question, rather than evasions.)
You can avoid the question, or admit you don't know the answer, of course.
Or you can continue to post off-topic about how our feelings and thoughts are irrelevant, as I expect you to based on experience. -
51
Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
David Hume's formulation of the problem of evil in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion:
"[God's] power we allow [is] infinite: Whatever he wills is executed: But neither man nor any other animal are happy: Therefore he does not will their happiness. His wisdom is infinite: He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end: But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge, there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?"
.. I would trust your own idea of what is good and bad than a being that is all powerful and yet does not alleviate anyone's suffering.